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An Interview with Mark Burnett
« on: Jun 7th, 2004, 10:09am » |
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June 6, 2004
Mark Burnett, Reality Commando
By VIRGINIA HEFFERNAN, New York Times
ARK BURNETT, the television producer behind many of the most successful reality series — or as he prefers to call them, unscripted shows — is now preparing for the June 8 debut of his latest series, "The Casino," on Fox. Set at the Golden Nugget in Las Vegas, the new show tracks the highs and lows of the gambling life. Between "Survivor: All-Stars" on CBS and "The Apprentice" on NBC, Mr. Burnett has had a triumphant year. But another of his shows, "The Restaurant," staggered off the air toward the end of its second season. Mr. Burnett mouthed off about winning and losing with Virginia Heffernan.
VIRGINIA HEFFERNAN "The Casino" is not a game show like "Survivor" and "The Apprentice." It's a serialized documentary, more like "The Restaurant," which got low ratings. Doesn't it seem risky to go back to that format?
MARK BURNETT Just so you know, I consider "The Restaurant" my best work ever.
HEFFERNAN Why do you say that?
BURNETT We told stories — it's 43 or 44 minutes of unscripted storytelling with no foundational blocks to build around. The sense of pride of that was infinitely bigger than the sense of pride with giant ratings.
HEFFERNAN But you must be going for ratings with "Casino."
BURNETT It's quite a risk. It's less likely to get "Survivor"-, "Apprentice"- or "Contender"-type ratings from a "Restaurant" or "Casino," because elimination and exclusion is a very, very core emotional hook. You can't get away from it, because you've been there. You've felt it. You've seen people feel it.
Now, "West Wing," "ER," "Ally McBeal" are serial, right? On those kind of stories, your scriptwriter can write dramatic incidents and exposition to tell you a story. Well, to try and make "The Restaurant" or "Casino" like that is really hard. Much harder than when I've got a tribal council and a boardroom to build around.
The reason I'm doing it, just so you know, though — the first person to find an unscripted drama without any elimination and finds great characters and goes five, six seasons and has no S.A.G. residuals, has no deficits, has just hit what's called a bonanza. I haven't hit on that yet.
HEFFERNAN "The Restaurant" seemed logistically cursed from the beginning. Did you lose sleep over it?
BURNETT Totally.
You know what? That's a lie. I sleep really well. I don't think like that.
I've actually been in a war. That's seriously losing sleep. And there are guys there who lose sleep every night. You know, Seal guys, Delta Force, Rangers, over in Afghanistan. I've been in serious mountains. You go to Afghanistan. It's really, really, really, really hard to carry that pack and ammunition hunting for the enemy. That's what you lose sleep over. If I was a commander, sending those guys out, I'd be losing sleep. I don't lose sleep over whether my show needs five extra edits or not.
HEFFERNAN O.K., but were you hurt when "The Restaurant" went off the air?
BURNETT Yes. Not — hurt. Not really. That's not a good emotion. But I felt bad for my crew. But I'm a grown-up. I can just move forward. "Casino" is another risk. I don't know if it'll work. But you know what? I'm trying to make interesting stories.
HEFFERNAN Your camera crews seem to have a sixth sense for the little dramas at the Golden Nugget. Do you train them?
BURNETT Do they go through major, major prep meetings and directing discussions and what sort of shots to get and all this kind of stuff? Yeah, totally. In the movies, I see you and I've got the camera on me, then we shoot your response to me, then we shoot a wide of the whole thing.
We don't have that luxury, because we can't stop anything. It's about the cameramen communicating with each other. That's the hardest thing. To communicate, and not get in each others' shots, while getting dramatic close-ups and semi-wides.
HEFFERNAN Do you like gambling?
BURNETT Not really. My kids want to play cards all the time. I can't stand it. But I compete with my kids every day, at everything. We bet who can kick the soccer ball through the hole, or who can throw the dart in the thing.
HEFFERNAN Do you always win?
BURNETT I try to. I never let them win. Ever. But they beat me, often, really. We have "Survivor" days with all their friends. We have tryouts, and we have competitions in the swimming pool. I'll put down like 25 big rocks and they've got to swim down in the water and bring the rocks back.
HEFFERNAN If you were on "Survivor" right now, what would your strengths be?
BURNETT My regular personality would absolutely get kicked off because I'm used to being in charge. But now I've watched eight seasons of this thing, so therefore I'm certainly a little smarter and may keep my mouth shut a bit more. But my regular personality would not do well.
HEFFERNAN Really?
BURNETT I'm outspoken. I'm really good in the outdoors and I'm athletic. So as long as I didn't annoy them too much they'd probably keep me. But once it got into the individual — and they may even have got rid of me before that because I'm annoying.
HEFFERNAN But you're a strategist. In fact, between "Survivor" and your lectures on leadership, you're a public authority on power games. I'm guessing you have a lot to say about what's going on in Iraq.
BURNETT What I would say is that I have very close friends over there. I think that no matter what, right or wrong, we have to support our guys. It's very easy for weak people with big mouths who've never been to war, and never slept out in their own back garden, to criticize strategy when there's actually real people in an awful situation trying to do their duty for their country.
HEFFERNAN Weak people — the press?
BURNETT Anybody. I've already done it, so I have a lot to say. But you haven't. You know nothing. You have your opinions from some college education. Every stupid comment makes the enemy feel bolder or makes our guys have less of an edge.
HEFFERNAN Do you ever miss the military?
BURNETT A lot.
HEFFERNAN What do you miss about it?
BURNETT The action.
HEFFERNAN Your life now has action.
BURNETT Not like that. This is not real. Not like getting shot at — that's real.
HEFFERNAN It sounds like you like to put your life on the line.
BURNETT No, I don't. I just like to live. Calculated risks. Scuba diving and scary places.
HEFFERNAN Like what?
BURNETT I love the Middle East, a lot. I had the greatest nights ever, sitting on the high Atlas mountains, with the Berber tribes, looking down at the Sahara. I'm fortunate to be friendly with the royal family of Jordan, and they arranged for me to spend some private time at Petra, which is unbelievably spiritual.
I really, really like Arabic people. So I'm very sad that it doesn't feel appropriate to take my kids to a lot of those places right now. If I were going on a military thing — I'm too old, I'm 43 now — but that's a whole different thing. When you're a hunter as opposed to being the tourist. And the innocent hunted.
HEFFERNAN Are you drawn to Islam?
BURNETT I don't believe in religion. I don't believe in any religion. It's all made up.
HEFFERNAN But isn't there a religious dimension to all your shows, with all that ritual?
BURNETT That's not religious. That's the wrong word.
HEFFERNAN What's the right word?
BURNETT Religion is an organized thing by human beings to convince other people to follow a way of speaking to God. Whereas I think that God's in everybody and you have to be in touch with yourself, and your God within you. I don't believe in religion, but I believe in spirituality. I believe that we are, along Joseph Campbell lines, touched by similar stories and beliefs. And that if you can hook into the emotional core of our beliefs, not religion, but beliefs, then you become a good storyteller.
HEFFERNAN Do you tell stories in your own life? Do you write stories?
BURNETT I don't write stories. But what I've always done is make up serial stories, me and my two boys, that go on for weeks. I can just sit down and start making up something, I don't even know where I'm going with it and the next night the kids — they're so good at it — they go, "O.K." It's like "Survivor" or "Apprentice": I always start with, "O.K. Last night, on the story," and there's a one-minute review. And we sometimes trade off, who's taking the lead, who's starting off. I think most human beings, if you go back before television and newspapers and radio, and films, they probably did that all the time. It was probably normal.
HEFFERNAN What about establishing conflict and creating characters? Do you——
BURNETT Every story does that. What story have you ever heard that didn't have protagonists, antagonists, conflict? And it needs to be based in something you can tie into. For me, I'm not saying that I would ever get a chance to make "Troy," but I can't think of a less interesting story line. O.K., explain this to me: first of all, Paris is supposed to be so in love with Helen that he's willing to cause basically what was a world war. Where I didn't get the sense that they were that in love. On the other hand, did you understand why Braveheart, William Wallace, went to war? He's a Joseph Campbell unwitting hero. He didn't want to do it. But once he saw the woman he loved, more than life itself, killed, it was like: game on. You better watch out. I believe that. I would do the same thing.
I didn't possibly believe that Orlando Bloom was that much in love. I thought he was like a snotty kid. And then I've got a situation where my hero, Achilles — who's got no redeeming qualities whatsoever; he's just good-looking and a good swordsman — he was fighting for fame. There's no hero, Joseph Campbell-quality whatsoever.
HEFFERNAN A hero has higher motives?
BURNETT Exactly. I understand Homer. Believe me, I've read everything. But that doesn't mean I have to like it — and, just because I make unscripted TV, be in awe of supposedly great stories. I don't really care. I got my opinions. I don't think that was a great story.
HEFFERNAN Donald Trump was a big success for you in "The Apprentice." But don't you think he's kind of an absurd figure?
BURNETT No. Not at all. The opposite, actually. Everyone told me: "My God, it's never going to work. Why is anyone going to watch Trump?" But I knew that Trump is very American and I've been around Trump enough to know that the people, as in blue-collar, regular people, adore Trump. He is a folk hero. Trump is brave. And, yeah, he might not be shy to promote himself, but the fact is the guy's down $900 million in his own cash — and billions in others' money — and he straightened it out. He came through.
HEFFERNAN He has made the point over and over that there's nothing more dangerous than New York City corporate politics. I don't believe it, and I don't think you do.
BURNETT For me, it used to be — not now — way scarier in the business world of New York City than being in the jungle. I've woken up with 45 leeches. I don't really care about that. I always catch flies and eat flies. I like that kind of stuff. Now I'm much more confident in my business sense, I guess, so I feel better about that.
But Trump and I laugh all the time. The last place he would ever be is in the Amazon or Africa with me. But I'm going to take him one of these days. Because I think he'd realize it's not so bad after all.
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