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Topic: President's State of the Union address tonight.... (Read 1112 times)

MzWings
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President's State of the Union address tonight....
« on: Jan 28^th, 2003, 9:17am »

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MzzJoplin
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #1 on: Jan 28^th, 2003, 1:48pm »

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« Last Edit: Jan 28^th, 2003, 1:49pm by MzzJoplin »

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east
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #2 on: Jan 29^th, 2003, 11:11am »

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i posted this elsewhere but wanted to know what we thought here about the state of the union address....

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Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy and it is not an option. The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured. Iraqi refugees tell us how forced confessions are obtained: by torturing children while their parents are made to watch. International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues and rape.

If this is not evil then evil has no meaning.

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America is a strong nation, and honorable in the use of our strength. We exercise power without conquest, and we sacrifice for the liberty of strangers.

Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world; it is God's gift to humanity.

We Americans have faith in ourselves but not in ourselves alone. We do not know - we do We Americans have faith in ourselves but not in ourselves alone. We do not know - we do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life and all of history. .

May he guide us now, and may God continue to bless the United States of America.

as a disclaimer, i want to say that i am a canadian. as i watched the 'state of the uinion address' last night, i could not help but wonder about the usage of good and evil in his speech. i troubled me because if only it were this definitive. in the words of Aleksander Solzhenitsyn "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, an it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

i have so many questions. it is not my intention to insult any of you. i was just wondering about how others felt about this speech....

peace,

east

« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2003, 11:21am by east »

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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #3 on: Jan 29^th, 2003, 1:24pm »

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All in all, I thought it was a good speech. He put his cards on the table. I certainally would not like to be in his shoes, making those tough decisions. It's IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone, and as is the case most times, the critics cry louder than the ones who are satisfied with the direction of things.

You have to realize that it's highly probable that we posess a lot more intelligence information concerning what could await the United States and the rest of the world down the line IF we (and the United Nations) continue to do nothing. I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt. All too often in this country, the collective memory dulls too quickly. The mentality seems to be, "if it didn't happen yesterday, it will never happen". Did any of us ever believe that 18-20 determined individuals would alter the landscape of New York City, killing thousands of innocent people?? War or any conflict for that matter, is never an easy decision. But peace, LONGTERM peace, will never be acheived if we do not draw the line somewhere, sometime. What should we do? Should the citizens of the United States wait until some third-world radical successfully delivers some sort of nuclear device right to our doorstep? Say hidden away in a cargo ship, sailed right into one of our harbors?? Do we wait until a large metropolitian city is destroyed and rendered uninhabitable for the next 100 years before we say OK, let's do something about terrorism?? Now I know that sounds extreme, but it is possible, and I want my President, and my government to consider ALL the facts, ALL the possibilities, and ALL the possible solutions. I am not going to say take anything off the table, just because I'm opposed to fighting (on principle).

That being said, I currently feel that we should give the United Nations time to gather enough facts so that ANY decision regarding Iraq will be supported by a majority of the citizens and the UN community.

One other comment: IMO I think this thread would be better served in the "In The News" area. Having this in with "Weightloss" and other light weight threads takes away from the importance of the issue.

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MzWings
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #4 on: Jan 29^th, 2003, 4:38pm »

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You expressed your feelings quite eloquently Bump. Thank you......

And I'll request Rhune to move this to In The News. Actually I didn't really imagine it would get one response. And when I created it here it was sarcastically done. My apologies.

And K-A, whether you be Canadian or what - you have just as much right as a citizen of the USA to ask whatever you please. I felt no offense in your query.

My problem with your post is - I'm not sure what you're asking - my bad. (Old age and all that...lol) Are you questioning what defines good and evil. The line between the two (IMO) is the same as the that fine line between love and hate....pain and ecstasy, etc.

So I'll stop here so you can cue me - and remember - just small little words..... :hug:

Oh my heck - this has already been moved! Thanks

« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2003, 4:41pm by MzWings »

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BlankWillWin
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #5 on: Jan 29^th, 2003, 5:58pm »

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Is Saddam Hussein evil? Sure he is. Would he like to develop nuclear weapons? Sure he would. Would he be a threat to the World's (or at least the Middle-East's) oil-supply if he had nuclear weapons? Of course he would be. Does this weigh into the Bush Administration considering him a bigger threat to World Peace than North Korean Dictator Kim Jong-il, who already has nuclear weapons? I'd bet it does.

Is part of the reason Saddam wants nuclear weapons exactly because of the difference in the American behavior toward Communist North Korea which imprisons and forces into slave-labor entire families if one member of that family speaks out against the government, or even complains about the starvation conditions they are forced to live under. (If a man complains about the government in North Korea, he is imprisoned, his wife is imprisoned, his parents and his children are imprisioned.) America is offering North Korea food, oil, and natural gas, and money and technical assistance if they will agree to dismantle their nuclear program, while we are massing troops on Iraq's borders. If I was Hussein, I'd want nukes, too.

Is Saddam evil? Sure he is. Do his police torture prisoners? Yes. Are innocent people routinely kill by those with power in Iraq? Yes. Has Human Rights Watch condemned the treatment of Afghan prisoners by U.S. soldiers at Guantanamo Bay? Yes. How many men of color have been released from Death Rows across the U.S. after DNA evidence proved them innocent after years of imprisonment and fruitless appeals? Dozens. How many innocent men of color were put to death before DNA technology became available? We have no way of knowing, but the odds say dozens, if not hundreds. Is Saddam evil? Sure he is. Does President Bush have the right to claim the moral high ground here? I don't think so.

Eric.

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MzWings
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #6 on: Jan 29^th, 2003, 6:17pm »

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Well Eric, I'm no debater and certainly not that politically savvy either. (DUH like you didn't know that) BUT....if Bush doesn't continue with his program to flush out these weapons - ETC - then what would you suggest? You mentioned if Bush should be claiming the high moral ground here. We're not a perfect world in the name of the USA. But - if Bush drops this.....what would you suggest?

I would NOT want to be in Bush's shoes.

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BlankWillWin
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #7 on: Jan 29^th, 2003, 6:46pm »

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I have no problem with the UN sponsored weapons inspections, and I believe they should continue. It seems clear, however, that the Bush Administration's goal is not the disarmament, but rather regime change, and they are just using terrorism and weapons of mass destruction as the excuse. Does America have the right to tell every other nation on Earth what form of government they should follow? I don't think so.

Eric.

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MzWings
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #8 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 10:16am »

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I hear ya on that Eric. And I think we paid dearly on 9/11 for (in part) for our "know it all" nosiness. Some country (or another) was bound to call us on that one day.

Basically, I feel USA's heart is truly in the right place. But she's still young and immature enough to mess up in the tolerance department. I'm wondering at this point - does she have any friends out there - at all?

Maybe she should have stayed home and played in her own backyard instead of barging into ALL the neighbor's, rearranging their "furniture". I feel our pantry is very very bare.

(If I've offended anyone here - my apologies)

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LibertyBelle
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #9 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 12:03pm »

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She has one friend at least... well two if you count me. This was written by an Englishman.

By Tony Parsons

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting - the mass murder of thousands, live on television.

As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.

Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance.

Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.

There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.

And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood.

A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon?

And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognised them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives. And children. Some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.

The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember, remember.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember - and realise that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex.

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength.

American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism". A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell", if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth.

The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic.

Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper.

And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein.

Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange centre, oh mighty one!

Remember, remember, September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget

« Last Edit: Jan 31^st, 2003, 12:05pm by LibertyBelle »

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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #10 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 12:18pm »

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I got this in an email this morning and I'd like to share it too.

To Kill an American

You probably missed it in the rush of news last week,
but there was actually a report that someone in
Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a
reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.

So an Australian dentist wrote the following to let
everyone know what an American is, so they would know when they found one. (Good on ya, mate!!!!)

An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish,
German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American
may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian,
Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian,
or Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan. An American may also
be a Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache,
Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as
native Americans.

An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or
Buddhist, or Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims
in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is
that in America they are free to worship as each of
them chooses. An American is also free to believe in
no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not
to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak
for the government and for God.

An American is from the most prosperous land in the
history of the world. The root of that prosperity can
be found in the Declaration of Independence, which
recognizes the God given right of each person the
pursuit of happiness.

An American is generous. Americans have helped out
just about every other nation in the world in their
time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by the
Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their
country. As of the morning of September 11, Americans
had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan.

Americans welcome the best, the best products, the
best books, the best music, the best food, the best
athletes. But they also welcome the least.

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty,
welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse
of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed.
These in fact are the people who built America. Some
of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2002 earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 other countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.

So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler
did. So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao
Tse-Tung, and every bloodthirsty tyrant in the history
of the world. But, in doing so you would just be
killing yourself. Because Americans are not a
particular people from a particular place. They are
the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom.
_________________________

I agree that we aren't perfect. We've made mistakes. I made a post about my opinions on that, on another board in what seems now to be the distant past. But criticism has gone too far. We are NOT responsible for what happened on 9/11. We are NOT responsible for all the ills in the world. And it is NOT our responsibility to make the entire world utopia. You can't reason with insanity.

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BlankWillWin
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #11 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 3:28pm »

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We are NOT responsible for what happened on 9/11. We are NOT responsible for all the ills in the world.

Let me just say that I agree with this completely. While I am proud to be a Liberal/Progressive in most of my views, I do recognize that the USA is the most powerful nation on Earth, and that our ideals are ones which have made the world a much better place in the last 200 years. I am proud to be an American, and I am thankful that I can express my disagreement with the President freely and without fear.

Eric.

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LibertyBelle
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #12 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 6:20pm »

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I agree with you Eric. There are a lot of places in the world where not only this conversation, but this activity, would not be allowed.

Also, it occurs to me that I should say that my posts weren't aimed at anyone, they were just taking part in the expressing of opinions about the Pres., this country, and attitudes about this country. Lord knows I've done my share of government bashing Wink

but blaming America for all the world's ills seems to be the popular attitude nowadays, and it gets up my nose. Grin

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MzWings
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #13 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 6:52pm »

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Bravo to both maBelle and Eric. Those two pieces are quite beautiful and actually, almost sacred. Thank you.
What both of you have expressed - was more than I expected. When I created this thread I was more than a little facetious....what a brat who might miss a few minutes of her silly show. Thank you for bringing me back "home".

No - I don't feel America brought 9/11 on herself either. That's just crazy. But I would have to agree to a couple of things that have been said about us: laid back, haughty - we've heard them all - and I feel this may have been true but in a different context. I have no idea why our guard was down that day - why weren't our very shores and airspace protected? Not just on 9/11 - how long had we been so unprotected? And, today - how well-protected is this Country in that same respect?

And how great is it to be able to freely and openly discuss what we wish in whatever forum we please?

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BlankWillWin
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Re: President's State of the Union address tonight
« Reply #14 on: Jan 31^st, 2003, 8:17pm »

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And how great is it to be able to freely and openly discuss what we wish in whatever forum we please?

No, no, no! :whip:

If you start discussing this sort of thing in the Survivor Amazon Spoilers forum, and I move your post so fast your head will spin! :freak:

Eric.

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