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   No black and whites in this war for me

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Topic: No black and whites in this war for me (Read 1466 times)

Rhune
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No black and whites in this war for me
« on: Apr 4^th, 2003, 4:21pm »

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I read a lot of these articles about the war and statements from people and I find I've been pretty conflicted over the war. There is just no black and white to fit my thoughts and opinions into it.

I find that in general I support the war. I think the more I learn, read, hear, etc. the more I feel like this is something that needs to be done. This man should be removed from power, these people have suffered terribly at his hands.

What I don't support is president Bush. Yes, I realize he is our commander in chief, etc. Frankly, I voted against him, I never wanted him to be in office, I don't agree with a lot of his policies, I can't wait for his time to be up and for him to be gone. Bush does not represent me and my opinions. I am disgusted beyond words at how we entered into this war & the fact that he's using a back door to give rebuilding contracts out to his friends.

Yes, I support the war, but I don't support the way we went about it, particularly the politics behind it. Does that make sense?

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MzWings
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #1 on: Apr 4^th, 2003, 5:30pm »

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Most of what you stated made sense to me. Maybe simply because I agree with your statements.

This one I don't understand (It's just me):

I am disgusted beyond words at how we entered into this war & the fact that he's using a back door to give rebuilding contracts out to his friends.

Yes, I support the war, but I don't support the way we went about it, particularly the politics behind it. Does that make sense?

How then, should this war have begun? And I don't know who his "friends" are re the rebuilding contracts.

Thanks!

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Rhune
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #2 on: Apr 4^th, 2003, 6:47pm »

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My comments stem from the fact that we had no support and no backing in this issue and I feel that if we had handled things differently and been a little more amiable with the UN about it, we would STILL have gone to war (although maybe not this week) and still have taken care of it, but without all the anger and protests we are seeing from not just many many other countries, but many of our own countrymen. I believe we could have handled this more diplomatically.

The comment I am making about the contracts ties in to the article I posted about the rebuilding of Iraq. Because Bush declared war without UN sanctions, the US is charge of rebuilding Iraq and not the UN. Bush invoked some emergency clause before the first bomb was even dropped that allowed him to bypass free market and hand select companies that would be allowed to bid on big contracts to rebuild Iraq. When I say he picked his friends, I say that because he specifically picked companies that donated large amounts to his campaign. I personally find this all deplorable.

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MzWings
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #3 on: Apr 4^th, 2003, 9:13pm »

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Thanks Rhune....I'll post back tomorrow. I'm already to pooped to think.........

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MzWings
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #4 on: Apr 6^th, 2003, 12:36pm »

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I Googled President Bush yesterday. Then I Googled several others as well. Most of you know (and I'm the first to admit) that I'm not politically aware of many of the issues surrounding just about anything political.
There has been so much negativity voiced about Bush - long before he became President and everyday since. But then, that isn't new. Seems they've all been dissed in one way or another.

After reading bio's for a couple of hours, my eyes were blurring so I quit. What I came away with though, were muddled misgivings because I know damned well one shouldn't believe everything they read - regardless of where the info comes. But I'm reminded of the old (silly) saying, "where there's smoke, there's fire."

OTOH, I can't dismiss much of what I "found out" about Bush either. Let's say, the things I read about Bush sickens me and now I understand why nearly everyone hates him so much. "Hate" is a strong word but that's the only word that seems to fit.

Like another Poster stated - they are "black and white" about these issues - and that's where I find myself today. I was in the comfortable "grey zone" because I could go merrily on my way telling others that they should be ashamed of themselves for ranting how terrible Bush is and how they should back him because "after all, he IS our President, you know!!"

In a way, I wish I hadn't Googled yesterday. But in another way, at least I won't continue to go around embarassing and making a fool of myself where Bush is concerned. When I say "God Bless America," it has a new meaning to me. I think you know what that is.

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LibertyBelle
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #5 on: Apr 6^th, 2003, 2:32pm »

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Now google Clinton Wingsy. Wink

It's been a long time since I've admired a president, and I can't remember when I've agreed with all a president's policies. Politics and politicians are corrupt or corruptible with few exceptions IMO, whichever party they belong to.

On the other hand, I don't admire the UN either. Iraq, for more than 12 years, has defied numerous UN Security Council resolutions demanding its disarmament, and remains under Article 7 sanctions - when was the UN going to be effective?? The idea of Iraq assuming the chairmanship of a United Nations disarmament commission is the epitome of irony. Also, that looming chairmanship could have been a factor in Bush's determination to go in now.

I don't think that Bush is any better or any worse than many of his predecessors. Read up on old George Washington, the man. He had his heroic moments, but he was most definitely not a heroic man. He was an extrememly ambitious social climber, married for money and position, became a surveyor with the motive of getting choice land cheap... and on and on.

I don't support Bush in all his policies and planned policies either. But I also don't think he's any more disgusting than most others.

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MzWings
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #6 on: Apr 6^th, 2003, 2:53pm »

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Clinton was one of the several I Googled. So far, Jimmy Carter seems to be one of the "cleanest" though I'm not sure he accomplished a lot during his term. Ronald Reagan - for all his faults - is still one of my fav presidents.

What you said about the UN holds for me too - ITA. What a shambles the US is in.

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"Senility Prayer"...God grant me...
The senility to forget the people I never liked
The good fortune to run into the ones that I do
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dobiew
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #7 on: Apr 6^th, 2003, 5:43pm »

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rhune. what you said makes sense to me.. i feel the same way especially about bush.. i could go on but i think you summed up the major points....

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DanDC99
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #8 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:05pm »

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You can find bad stuff about everyone on the net.. try Googling Mother Teresa sometime. The bigger question is: Can you trust what you have read?

I would tend to agree with Belle that most of the presidents have not been heroes their whole lives. I would also expect to see a lot more on recent ones such as Clinton and Bush, at least online.

I haven't seen anything that warrants Bush being called a terrorist, or wishing him dead. Thats just my opinion.

I also don't think that disliking Bush is a valid reason for being against the war. You may think that he bungled the diplomacy, which I might agree with even. But if you say that you would support the war because Clinton or Carter or Regan was in the White House instead of Bush, then you are anti-Bush, not anti-war.

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Rhune
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #9 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:18pm »

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I agree, I am in favor of the war and don't like Bush. I don't think he's a terrorist and I don't wish him dead, and I don't think he's the worst president we've ever had or that others walk on water. I just know that he doesn't represent my opinions very well and does a lot of things I don't like, and I'll be happy when his time is up and someone else moves in.

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DanDC99
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #10 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:27pm »

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That was wonderfully said Rhune.

Unfortunately, I have never had a President I agreed with on everything (maybe fortunately, I dunno). I question Bush's opinions on lots of things. The war isn't one of them. I agreed with Clinton when he said we needed to do this as well. Personally, I wanted Bush rather than Gore, but I can think of others I would have voted for over both of them.

Then again, thats why we have checks and balances in the govt. The congress voted for this too. It seems about 80% are for it. It doesn't get much higher than that. So it seems disingenuous to put all of it on Bush, instead of both branches of govt who supported it.

« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:30pm by DanDC99 »

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MzWings
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #11 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:30pm »

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on Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:05pm, DanDC99 wrote:

I haven't seen anything that warrants Bush being called a terrorist, or wishing him dead. Thats just my opinion.

I also don't think that disliking Bush is a valid reason for being against the war. You may think that he bungled the diplomacy, which I might agree with even. But if you say that you would support the war because Clinton or Carter or Regan was in the White House instead of Bush, then you are anti-Bush, not anti-war.

Calling Bush a terrorist or wishing him dead is just "crazy talk" and I think I know of what you're referring.

Actually, I haven't addressed my feelings about the war. I'm for the war - I know of no other way to bring about better lives for those affected by Hussein. I'm against the way Bush did it without the sanction of the UN.

Then another little problem I had when I was googling was being careful to take some of that info with a grain of salt. Some of it seemed to be penned by someone we know mutually.

Now, Mother Teresa is one I haven't checked...lol.

« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:51pm by Rhune »

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DanDC99
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #12 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:49pm »

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We can prefer to let the UN run our foreign policy if we want to, but I don't think its the best solution. I am glad Bush didn't think so. I am also glad Clinton didn't think so when he took action in Bosnia (although I didn't hear too many protests at the time).

We need to have the freedom to make our own decisions about national policy, and not have the French be able to veto anything we want. We probably could have gone back and gotten the votes we needed to get a second resolution, but the French would have vetoed it anyway...

IMNSHO, the war is either the right thing to do, or it isnt. If it is the right thing to do, then we should do it... regardless of how France feels. If its the wrong thing to do, we shouldnt do it no matter what the UN says.

and don't believe everything you read on the internet Wink

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MzWings
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #13 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 2:06pm »

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on Apr 7^th, 2003, 1:49pm, DanDC99 wrote:

IMNSHO, the war is either the right thing to do, or it isnt. If it is the right thing to do, then we should do it... regardless of how France feels. If its the wrong thing to do, we shouldnt do it no matter what the UN says.

and don't believe everything you read on the internet Wink

Well I do believe we're already in the war Dan! :winkgrin:

And as far as believing everything I read - I stopped that long before the internet was even thought of. :rofl:

I can't make a viable comment on the UN. Right now, I can't visualize no UN. *shrug*

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"Senility Prayer"...God grant me...
The senility to forget the people I never liked
The good fortune to run into the ones that I do
And the eyesight to tell the difference."

DanDC99
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Re: No black and whites in this war for me
« Reply #14 on: Apr 7^th, 2003, 2:15pm »

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Yes, we are in the war already, I just keep seeing people say we were right/wrong about going... so I thought I would put in my 2 cents.

btw, I am not saying there should be NO UN at all. They do a good job with humanitarian efforts and such. I do think a body with hundreds of nations with their own self interests has a tough time doing anything that is not in their own self interests. Makes it hard to get a resolution to do anything other than severely scold someone... or sanctions at the most. And we are finding out now that some nations which voted for the sanctions were probably breaking them.

If you can't make a comment on the UN's viability, then why do you think Bush needed to go there to get another approval to go liberate Iraq?

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