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Topic: Pledge of Allegiance (Read 2612 times)

Addams
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Pledge of Allegiance
« on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 1:09pm »

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The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Wednesday struck down a morning ritual for schoolchildren across the country -- the recitation of the pledge of allegiance.

A divided three-judge panel held that the words "one nation under God" violate the Establishment Clause separating church and state, making the court the first to sustain a constitutional challenge to public invocations of God that had, until now, been ruled merely ceremonial.

(as reported on June 27, 2002 at law.com)

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crypto
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #1 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 1:42pm »

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I would be very surprised if the Supreme Court didn't overturn the ruling of the Appeals court.

FWIW, I think the wording should stay the way it is. Children have the right not to resight the pledge and not be repremanded for it. If we change the pledge, then we have to change our money.

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Irishlass
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #2 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 1:59pm »

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Oh, how I hate to admit this, but I remember when the Pledge did not contain "under God". That's right folks, it was put into the pledge in 1954 when Eisenhower was president. I was in the second or third grade at the time and I remember having to relearn the Pledge.
I think the "In God We Trust" has always been on our money, correct me if I am wrong on that one. Anyway, I think it should be left the way is is now and I believe the Supreme Court will eventually uphold that. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

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MzzJoplin
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #3 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:17pm »

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In my opinion, I don't see why they don't just remove the "under god" part ... it wasn't there to begin with, so what's the big deal about them taking it back out?

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east
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #4 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:55pm »

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i really have nothing to add here because i am canadian and don't understand the importance of the pledge.

could someone explain it to me? Huh

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DanDC99
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #5 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:58pm »

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Does that mean we have to change our court system where we swear on the bible too?

My best solution is that they make it optional... say it whatever way you like. I doubt that would fly with the ilk who wanted it gone, though...

From what I understand (although I havent read it myself), this same guy want "In God We Trust" off of the money too, so I guess we will have to recall it, or use unconstitutional money...

FWIW, the court who ruled in this case is the MOST overturned in the country, according to news reports.. Maybe that can give us an idea on the chances of this being overturned...

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Bumper
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #6 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 5:03pm »

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This ruling from this particular Court is rideculious. But the 9th Circuit has a past history of stupid, off the wall rulings so I'm not really surprised. This ruling will be overturned so fast it is sure to be an embarrasment to the Court.

It has already been ruled that if anyone doesn't want to say the Pledge, they don't have to, so to impose this kind of political correctness and nit-picking to each and every word is assinine. If you were to extend the "thinking" (and I almost regret calling it "thinking"), of this particular Court, we would no longer be able to sing God Bless America, hell, we couldn't even sing John Denver's song, "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this particular gentleman takes SUCH offense to the word "God", he can send me all his money and I will take care of it for him. He can then use beads, corn kernels or whatever for HIS currency if that would make him feel better!!!!
He got what he wanted, - - - -
- - - - - his 15 minutes of "fame".

Political correctness is a damn crock!! Angry

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #7 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 5:19pm »

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on Jun 27^th, 2002, 5:03pm, Bumper wrote:

It has already been ruled that if anyone doesn't want to say the Pledge, they don't have to, so to impose this kind of political correctness and nit-picking to each and every word is assinine. If you were to extend the "thinking" (and I almost regret calling it "thinking"), of this particular Court, we would no longer be able to sing God Bless America, hell, we couldn't even sing John Denver's song, "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bumper you are so good at "stating it like it is!" Thanks for this. In Canada it is no longer mandatory to swear on the bible either. You swear based on your own personal beliefs system. Until you mentioned it I did not know that the pledge was optional.

thanks for that insight.

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BlankWillWin
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #8 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 6:53am »

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Well, swearing on the Bible is optional here, as well. If you're Hindu, or Pagan, or an Athiest, or you just want to, you can "affirm" that you will tell the truth in court, or uphold the Constitution in your elected office. Given that the "under God" phrase was added to the Pledge in 1954, by the McCarthy-era Congress, at the urging of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization, and the Constitution provides not only the freedom to worship as you please, including the freedom to NOT worship some monotheistic deity, but also the freedom to NOT worship at all, I think the 9th Circuit made the right decision. Asking a 2nd grader to stand and make the choice between defying her father's belief system by saying the Pledge, or defy her teacher and her peers by NOT saying the Pledge is not the way I envision the Constitution protecting my rights.

Eric.

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BlankWillWin
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #9 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 7:09am »

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on Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:55pm, eastendgirl wrote:

i really have nothing to add here because i am canadian and don't understand the importance of the pledge.
could someone explain it to me? Huh

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'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

It's something that every American kid stands and says every morning in school, and as such, it's part of American culture, moreso than even the National Anthem, since at least when I was in school, we didn't sing that every day. People, generally don't think about it much, and for most kids, it's just part of the morning routine, and largely without significance, but it's part of the American psyche, and as such, when it gets challenged, America's jingoistic, "My country, right or wrong!" spirit tends to go into overdrive.
Given that most of the people in Congress were in school before 1954, most of Congress learned the Pledge without the phrase "under God" in it, so their impassioned defense of the phrase smacks of pleasing the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition, rather than any sincere desire to "defend America".

Eric.

« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2002, 7:12am by BlankWillWin »

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DanDC99
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #10 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 8:21am »

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FYI, saying the pledge is also optional, at least in that school district from my understanding of things....

Am I wrong in that? I wish I could find the article in which I saw it.....

If that is the case, is it different than the optional swear on the bible thing? If it isn't, would that be a solution? To just make the pledge optional?

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crypto
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #11 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 8:54am »

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Here ya go Dan:

It was not until 1942 that Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance. One year later, in June 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite it. In fact,today only half of our fifty states have laws that encourage the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom!

site: http://www.usflag.org/the.pledge.of.allegiance.html

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DanDC99
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #12 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 9:34am »

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Thank you , sweetie...

OK, it seems to be very close to the swearing on the bible issue in terms of being optional and not mandatory. So, what is the difference? And is the issue really that the words are there, rather than that this guys kid was allowed to say it at school?

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crypto
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #13 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 9:48am »

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Update on the ruling:

A day after he shocked the nation by declaring the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, a federal appeals court judge put his ruling on hold Thursday.

see attached article:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/772714.asp?0dm=C16RN

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Pocket
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #14 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 10:43am »

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Bumper...I'll stand in line for some of that guy's money. He can use the barter system from now on....or sing for his supper.

Having said that, being a senior citizen, (OH that smarts) as a child I didn't memorize "under God". In any gathering where the Pledge is recited, there is a rumble/fumble over that phrase. That's because the older ones didn't learn it that way.

While I do believe the separation of church and state is important, this is the kind of thing to trigger all kinds of responses. There needs to be some common sense with these issues. Saying the Pledge isn't mandatary, saying "under God" isn't mandatory, so why is this an issue at all?

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